Die austauschbaren Wasserstoff-Tankpatronen von Toyota bieten unbegrenzte Reichweite bei Elektrofahrzeugen

Hydrogen has for long been touted as the next big thing in sustainable motoring. Yet, there are only sudden sparks of brilliance in hydrogen tech for vehicles, and then it fades again. Let’s hope this time there’s more to it that reaches mass production and acceptance.

H2 has indeed a very high energy density (by weight). The only problem is that the specific mass is very low….. You can float airships with Hydrogen (if you are brave enough).

Hydrogen = 120-142 MJ/kg (density is 90kg/m3 at atmospheric conditions)

Gasoline = 32 MJ/kg (density is 873kg/m3 at atmospheric conditions)

you can not put hydrogen in your tank, it is lighter than air and would stream out of your tank by itself.

compressing it to form a liquid you need about 128 bar pressure, cooling it to form a liquid, you need to cool it to -253 degrees centigrade or some combination.

how much energy is lost to compress or cool it, is not referenced, it’s only touted that hydrogen has a very high energy density…..

i hope that the hydrogen cartidges are heavy enough to prevent them from floating up in air when empty.

The Toyota Mirai is one of the most fuel efficient hydrogen cars, with 0.76 kg/100km. In California, the cost at the pump was $14/kg. The production cost is around $5/kg for hydrogen from renewables. This doesn’t include all the costs associated with liquefaction, distribution, and loses because hydrogen just escapes everywhere. The DOE target is to achieve $1/kg by 2031. Most analysts consider this target not realistic. Most estimates put the production cost at 15% of the total cost.

[https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2024/05/hydrogen-hidden-costs-energy-transition/](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2024/05/hydrogen-hidden-costs-energy-transition/)

Assuming that all other costs can be reduced at the same rate as the production costs, which not realistic at all, the cost at the pump would be around $6.66/kg in 2031.

A Tesla Model 3 costs $540 to charge 15,000 miles.

A Toyota Mirai costs $2,568 in 2024 to fuel 15,000 miles. It could cost $1,222 in 2031.

Japanese car makers would be better off proposing we ride horses rather than beating the hydrogen dead horse. It is 20 years too late, and other technologies have now taken over.

Stop trying to make Hydrogen a thing, Toyota.

The reason this turd of a technology keeps rising to the surface is because the oil and gas industry has a stake in it (and none in electrification), and promoting this crap leads many people, including people in influence, to doubt electrification. For them, at worst it slows down the transition to electrification.

So, you logical practical types might think, that can’t be true. I ran a successful energy consultancy for 20years, and I sat in meetings with the oil and gas industry who only want to work out how to undermine legislation and have it favour hydrogen. And then lean on legislators when it was not going the right way (because.dominant industries behave like the mafia). Speaking the truth against hydrogen requires repeating again and again, because our legislators don’t work for us, and they don’t want to hear it.

It will die because it will never compete on cost. But by the time that’s clear to enough people, it might be too late.

Hydrogen doesn’t make sense for regular vehicles. It is best suited for delivery or service vehicles that go back to a fixed point. Building out the infrastructure to support hydrogen stations is just too much

Toyota has been obsessed with making hydrogen fuel cells happen for decades. I don’t see how they catch on in any meaningful way to get the economies of scale to kick in. Hydrogen is expensive as hell compared to electricity even in high $/kwh areas. Hydrogen is leaky. Hydrogen is arguably more destructive to the environment to procure, process, and transport than where most electricity is at now and where it is headed (that is, towards cleaner sources such as renewables and nuclear, with fewer coal and natural gas plants every year as those economies of scale wind down).

Electrification is the way. I bet we see more widespread charging stations in regular places before we see any meaningful hydrogen depots. Folks in apartments without assigned spaces saying they don’t have a place to park and charge will **also** not have a place to park and refuel hydrogen just like they don’t with gas. They will have to go elsewhere just like is expected now. “Refueling at home” is a luxury at this point that a lot of people living in urban environments have difficulty bearing.

But it doesn’t mean we should reject electric vehicles, which have much cheaper $/mile and much cleaner sources, in favor of the more expensive and “dirtier” hydrogen. Toyota just has this weird hard on for it.

Plenty of cheap used Mirai on craigslist in California cuz there’s only one or two fuel stations within hundreds of miles. You have to plan your trips exact and cannot deviate without a possible tow.

Wait, so because I can refuel, it’s unlimited range?

What problem does this solve?

The point of hydrogen to begin with was the fast refueling times.

Hydrogen is being promoted simply because the oil cartels can continue to control the production, distribution and price of the product. The consumer will never break free of the cartels with hydrogen. As Roger Daltrey sang, “Meet the new boss….same as the old boss…”

This got interesting. What is the cost of hydrogen fuel vs. gasoline? The article mentioned fuel cells light enough to be carried in a backpack. Skil that and move to swappable hydrogen fuel cells that you can exchange at a gas station like a propane tank. Full fuel tank/cell with a limited mile reserve (like your low fuel light). Your light comes on, you know your fuel cell is empty, and you only have *X* distance left you can travel. Pull into the next gas station, pull your cell, swap at an exchange kiosk, put in the new full cell, and drive on. It’d be faster than pumping gas.

All I can picture in my head is the scene from “The Fifth Element” when they’re swapping the fuel into the ship before it takes off to Fhloston Paradise.

The future is coming.. hopefully Multi-passes follow as well.

I want to write a few words in defense of the Fuell Cell concept.
1. It is appealing to me that it eliminates the charge time.
2. There is no such thing like 10-80% or your battery ages faster. You can fully use the content of the h2 container.
3. It is less heavy, paving the way to less monostrous but performant cars.

I see drawbacks too, but those were listed by the rest of you guys and I don’t say you are wrong. But maybe, just maybe, its not that Toyota engineering is full of incompetent staff. IMHO they are executing a long term vision.
If they can pull it through, I would be happy to see more options a available for my future car purchases.

I’ve been really interested in the prospects of ammonia motors. The process isn’t that difficult from current ICMs, and ammonia is easy to produce in mass quantities.

How big a boom would three of those duct-taped together make? Asking for a friend.

Hold on let me just top up on some hydrogen in the middle of the badlands between California and Arizona so I don’t get stranded…. Oh wait right infrastructure is a thing and there isn’t any