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    Arbeitnehmer, die über die RTO-Vorschriften verärgert sind, haben im Grunde keine rechtliche Möglichkeit, sich dagegen zu wehren


    Arbeitnehmer, die über die RTO-Vorschriften verärgert sind, haben im Grunde keine rechtliche Möglichkeit, sich dagegen zu wehren

    https://www.businessinsider.com/employee-return-to-office-mandates-no-legal-recourse-employer-2024-9

    View 46 Comments

    46 Comments

    1. McFatty7 on

      AI Summary:

      * **No Legal Recourse**: Most employees have no legal grounds to fight return-to-office (RTO) mandates unless there’s a protected reason under established law, such as a medical circumstance.
      * **At-Will Employment**: The majority of US employees are considered “at-will,” meaning employers can terminate them at any time for any legal reason, and employees can quit at any time.
      * **Employer’s Decision**: Employers have the authority to decide whether a job should be performed remotely, unless there is a contractual obligation stating otherwise.
      * **Reasonable Accommodations**: Employees with medical reasons may have legal recourse if an employer rejects a doctor-prescribed “reasonable accommodation” for remote work under certain state laws and the federal Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).

    2. QuesoMeHungry on

      And all of these companies are basically colluding by forcing RTO at the same time to stop people from leaving in droves to other companies offering full WFH to get the talent. I’m sure they all had a chat about it in Davos.

    3. Youvebeeneloned on

      I mean, the reason we are still talking about RTO right now, is that employees are fighting and winning against them.

      Dell cant even get its people back into the office with threats against promotions. Others are dealing with the same issues, the good employees are leaving to companies that are hybrid/virtual, the bad employees are remaining causing projects to slid, and timelines to get blown up.

      There is a reason multiple studies have concluded you hurt your company by forcing RTO in the longrun, vs the little financial hit you take on leases.

    4. NebulousNitrate on

      I’m in the industry and think I have it absolutely great, but I could definitely see unions forming out of this.

    5. 04221970 on

      Is it a surprise that there is no legal path to fight RTO?

      In what universe should a company be forced to not require RTO for standard regular employees?

    6. voiderest on

      Going to work for someone else is an option. The time-frame on a move kinda depends on the individual and industry. Going from remote to on-site is effectively a paycut so that’s a good reason to go looking. The hiring process is kind of a mess right now and there is a downturn wall street is trying to ignore.

      There may also be legal issues associated with constructive dismissal or using RTO as a stealth layoff. The company may also have long-term issues with keeping/hiring people they want. There is also the issue of people being less inclined to put effort into things beyond normal job duties if everyone is unhappy or doesn’t expect to be working there in a year or two.

    7. colonel_beeeees on

      It’s called a union. The thing that tech workers love to say they don’t need

    9. TheUniqueKero on

      Sure they do, quit. Companies that want to compete will keep offering remote work as an incentive

    10. jbmowgli on

      If only there was a way employees could stand together, and negotiate with their employers for working conditions that they desire….

    12. Leverkaas2516 on

      > have essentially no legal path to fight them

      There are lots of legal ways to fight them. What is suggested is that there’s no way to use the courts to coerce employers to employ remote workers. And that’s as it should be.

    13. S7EFEN on

      the only decent legal argument is for disability accomidations i think. employers going to have a hard time arguing wfh is unreasonable if theyve allowed wfh for 5 years.

    14. SplatThaCat on

      Which is why they will go the malicious compliance path, like I am taking.

      No extra hours like they got from me when I was WFH 5 days a week (they literally got a 10 extra hours as I would start when I would normally leave for work – and it takes 1 hour there, 1 hour back).

      Add to the fact that half the time because one office closed there literally are not enough desks and people are coming in and going back home because the other option is to sit on the floor!

    15. cyanrave on

      I get it, we all got awesome setups during COVID, but damn if people didn’t ruin RTO by not getting the numbers where I work.

      We did 3 day RTO optional, nobody showed. Our facilities and staffing were in a serious rut. We lost support staff left and right, but it also gave facilities the chance to make huge improvements.

      We did 4 day RTO mandatory, and people still divert to 3 day RTO or fewer and chances are it’ll now go on performance reviews.

      I get that it sucks by I genuinely enjoy the little breaks in between Zooms to talk to people I would never talk to in the small hallways Zoom creates. Mileage may differ.

    17. Drunky_Brewster on

      It’s a political issue and needs to be treated as such for anything to change. For example, those who live in Seattle need to vote in people to their city council who will repeal any tax breaks corporations get for having a certain amount of people in office. Vote in people who will pass laws that make it easier for developers to turn those office buildings into residential instead of laws that only allow for new construction.

      We need to start paying attention to our local elections to make any lasting changes.

    18. chronomagnus on

      Quiet quitting is a solid answer. Drive down that production, make them do pips and go through a process, make it costly and slow to let you go.

    19. divvyinvestor on

      RTO is universally hated across the globe except by a handful of executives and commercial real estate owners who stand to lose fortunes.

      I think it will eventually become vogue again to let people work remotely. By then the commercial landlords will have offloaded to buildings to the next generation of suckers.

    20. Erazzphoto on

      I have zero interest in ever returning to an office, but I also understand this is the companies decision, and they have that right. I have just as much right to pursue a new employer. Short of a contractual breech, there’s no law against a company making those decisions, nor should there be.

    24. Vo_Mimbre on

      It’s business insider. This isn’t the go-to publication for cultural change and worker rights. This article is textbook “don’t worry about it business person, your employees can’t do shit and the loudest ones will quit”.

    25. J-drawer on

      There’s no legal path, but there’s enough research showing that working from home is better for productivity.

      It’s complete stupidity on management’s part to force them back to the office.

    28. lonsdaleave on

      your rights depend on the job description and legal documents you signed when getting hired.

    30. GrippingHand on

      Is this not constructive dismissal? Changing terms of the work substantially without employee input?

    32. Aggressive-Bus-1972 on

      Sabotage can be quite effective when done internally by a large group of angry people

    35. turbo_fried_chicken on

      Whatever we do, don’t quit. Get fired instead. Take that mess to the state.

    37. getSome010 on

      We’re a global company at the business I work at so RTO would literally make zero sense. There’s lots of people not near offices.

    38. blue-eyes-bob on

      Morale is so low at my office people are reading books and taking naps at their desks. Nobody gives a fuck anymore.

    39. hackingdreams on

      Sure they do: form a union, go to the bargaining table.

      Of course, that headline scares the pants off of business insiders, so, can’t have that headline.

    42. JestersDead77 on

      My company floated forcing RTO a few years ago, right after I started. They backed off after a huge push back. I’m guessing a good number of critical people said they’d rather quit. Now they’re only hiring new engineers as hybrid roles. The writing is on the wall that they are phasing remote positions out. 

      They just can’t accept that people don’t want to sit in traffic and pay for parking / tolls. Our office is pretty great. Pretty well stocked kitchen, we can take whatever we want for free. Beer on tap. Frequent paid lunches, etc… I still don’t want to go downtown every day. The 2+ hours of commute time I save per day is worth more to me than all the free bagels in the world. The ability to take a quick “break” from work, and do a couple household chores means when I’m done with work, I can just relax. After my 30 second commute up the stairs, of course.

    43. buttkowski on

      The legal path to doing something about it is unionizing the workplace.

    44. buttkowski on

      The legal path to doing something about it is unionizing the workplace.

    45. TheRedGerund on

      The only thing I have is leverage in the market place as a senior. I left and went to a smaller company that offered remote.

      Of course my job was immediately filled by either a junior or mid level or someone who needs a visa.

      So I guess everything worked out in the end. Just feels unfair.

    46. badwords on

      With non-competes now over. I can see groups of skilled people coming together and forming rival companies.

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